Friday, February 23, 2007

Debate With Dan--Part Four

Continuing from comment on Fighting the Good Fight

This comment from Pastor Cornell illustrates the problem with many believers' opinions about atheists. This guy is a believer speaking to believers. His intention is not an explanation, it is retention. He is trying to keep his flock in line by making assertions that he knows nothing about.

Relying on a preacher to explain atheism is like going to a Republican for an explanation of why there should be a Democratic president.

"An atheist assigns himself to life without ultimate purpose."
Wrong. It is just a different purpose than the pastor's.

"The atheist must also suppress the demands of logic."
Terribly wrong. It is logic that breeds atheism.

"...the very existence of the universe seems to be a colossal violation of the laws of nature (i.e., a miracle)."
Wrong again. But, this guy knows that. He is talking to believers not atheists.

"The atheist must also deny the validity of historical proof. If he accepted the standard rules for testing the truth claims of historical documents, he would be forced to accept the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
Wrong again. I have already covered this in a previous post.

"Always remember that the atheist's problem with belief in God is not the absence of evidence but the suppression of it."
Wrong. There is no evidence for God outside of the Bible which I have repeatedly said and shown is an unreliable source of information.

"This is what scripture teaches."
His only source of evidence.

This is a sermon, not an explanation. If you want your pipes fixed you get a plumber not a roofer. If you want to know what atheists think you ask atheists, not someone whose source of income is dependant on people believing in a fairy-tale.

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8 comments:

Dan Marvin said...

I understand your points and they are valid but to explore the mind of one atheist out there I have a few points for you.

Point 1: I want to ask what are the atheists or to personalize it more, Ron’s “ultimate purpose in life” do you agree to the statement of “he will admit to feeling that there is something more to existence -something bigger” Do you think that this existence is really it and this is the best we can have, survival of the most corrupt and evil. Man being corrupt and flawed is just the best the universe has to offer?

Point 2: If we all destroy all of us will that be it then? Do you think then some mole rat will take over as the dominate species. Fanatic Islam blowing up things until a country gets fed up and nukes the world. I can not in my heart when I look up in the sky, believe that this is all we will have. That there is something more out there for us to do then to just pollute and destroy. What an incredible waste of space (to coin a phrase from Contact).

Point 3: Do you honestly believe that all of this, even our morals, intellect, DNA and all the facets of life happened by accident or by some sort of order and design?

Point 4: Do you believe that Jesus did exist and moved people enough to have people write about him? There were many people in history that saw what Jesus did and wrote about him. Even the apocrypha’s about him were written even if they may have had different eastern or western flair at times. It still moved enough people for it to last longer then even many governments like I pointed out earlier. People wrote about Plato and Socrates also but no one in history claimed that they were God or that they performed any miracles but they were very intelligent men that warranted people writing about them. Do you even give Jesus that credit? That maybe he talked like no one in the world ever and it stirred the world enough to keep this movement going this long?

In summation as a basis for most of my arguments I use scripture because that is what the Christian has a Schoolmaster for his learning of God. I have heard that it is flawed and unreliable by atheist but it is what we have as a baseline and evidence of theology. To negate it you, as an atheist, must negate all books of science and physics (your basis of knowledge) theory or otherwise. You have your books as evidence and we have ours. I am trying real hard to get some sort of C.S. Lewis conversion out of you where he was a devote atheist who, in his search to disprove Christianity, became a Christian himself. I do honor your opinions even though without faith it will be impossible for any Atheist to understand God because that is the exact thing that he requires of us. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

As for my slogan I am correcting it because of an oversight in my spelling which as you know by now is quite atrocious. The slogan is: When an Atheist wins an argument, he loses eternity.

Lolita said...

Hi Honey, I'm home!!

James said...

Of course, your complaint is that this man is making wild, unsubstantiated claims without any proof, unless I misinterpreted your intent. But you are refuting his claim with further unsubstantiated claims. Except for the refutation of Jesus' resurrection, you offer no proof or theories, and the Jesus thing is based on the assumption that all Christians think the writers of the bible are infallible. They don't. 'Course I can't really call myself a christian. If I did, I'd be a godawful one. But I do think Christians are treated unfairly. They are the most singled out and persecuted religion behind perhaps Islam.

Dan Marvin said...

The mere fact that Ron disappeared is very disturbing. There may be something wonderful happening or something terrible. Either Ron is being moved by God and is evaluating his life and finding God. He may be having a family emergency and if he is then he is in my prayers to pull through it and I hope that is not the case.

He may have purchased the Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel and found out there is God. He may have buried his head into the Bible and is in deep prayer.

Either way I hope the best for him and I hope he gets back on line and lets us all know he is alright and is doing well. Ron, if you are out there let us know you are OK because some of us care about you.

Take care of yourself buddy,
Dan

Mr. Andrea Lewis said...

In my opinion, such close definition-by people of themselves and others-is unnecessary. Being is complicated enough without the masquerading-behind-of-definitions. Atheists have the same glorious spark within them that christians, hindus, devilworshppers, and the lot have. What's important is how we mix-is my point to impress upon you my belief or to accept you?

Dan Marvin said...

It’s like a bunch of teenagers getting into mischief and getting into trouble and I (as an adult) say “Hay! your parents are going to be very upset at all of you when they find out what you’re doing.”

The teenagers response is “F$#@ you dork, go tell someone who gives a crap” and “you liar, a$#hole”

You are all shooting the messenger, according to the Bible there is no distinction between atheists and satanists. Please don’t believe what I am telling you, look it up yourself. Does that mean I have no compassion by stating that? Does that mean I don’t care enough for all your well being to tell you that our Father will be very upset at your wickedness (again according to the Bible)? Did I really hit a nerve? You all seem to be fine and tolerate buddhism, muslims or yes even satenism but when it comes to Jesus you get a deep hatred foaming at the mouth and slander whoever brings up the name Jesus Christ.

Is it a toothache you all have? I am touching it saying “hay that one there (press) looks black” and you all scream “OWWWW” in pain. I did not make up the Bible but the atheist experience people (as well as you) are declaring WAR against God by being public activist against him. I am merely (as a concerned human brother) pointing out that if you don’t address that tooth then it will infect your whole body and turn gangrenous and you will perish. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-11

I have told the atheist experience people many times as they were slandering me to never take my word for it that they could look it up themselves in the Bible, to do the research. I pointed out the verses that I was addressing and giving an adequate debate. What was the response? More ad hominem fallacies and they came back with the troll comment or calling me stupid or pathetic and such. To me it is just sad to waste good minds to pride and destruction for being like little brat teenagers.

You must know by now that there is accountability in nature and the universe. If you jump out the window you will go splat because of the law of gravity. If you try to live with grizzlies or lions because they are so cute, you will get shredded because you are breaking the boundaries of nature. If you take your mask off underwater you will drown because of conditions that are not suitable for sustaining life for humans. If you take your helmet off in deep space you will implode because of the laws of pressure and physics and such. So if there are so many laws to follow why are you all ignoring God’s law?

You will be held accountable for your actions and in my opinion it fits for the conditions that surround us. That is why we don’t rape children, because it is wrong to us in our hearts. The atheist experience people tried to explain it was because society said it was wrong and that was it. Isn’t that absurd to you? So I tried to reason with them but they ended up blocking me and giving out my IP address to the world. So be it, we move on, but we don’t have forever here on earth. My urgency and enthusiasm is not to harm but to warn as a friend. Would you let your friend get behind a wheel after it’s apparent that he is very drunk and will possibly hurt himself or worse, others? They are reckless and they know it, and so do you if you search your heart. I love you enough to take your keys, punch me if you must because of your drunken rage but, deep in your heart you know what is at stake here.

For Him,
Dan

Author, Atheist, USN Veteran said...

Because I love your blog-- TAGGED from the atheist blogroll-- http://godlessgrief.blogspot.com/
for posting rules.

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